MSNBC’s Chris Hayes had an unusual but memorable moment on his show All In on Wednesday, as he covered a fiery exchange between his wife, constitutional law professor Kate Shaw, and Senator Josh Hawley (R-MO) during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing. Shaw, who co-hosts the Strict Scrutiny podcast and is a professor at Cardozo Law School, was testifying on the topic of nationwide injunctions issued during the Trump administration.
The debate became heated when Hawley attempted to challenge Shaw’s views on the legality and frequency of nationwide injunctions, which are court orders that prevent the government from taking action until a case is resolved. These injunctions were a prominent feature during President Donald Trump’s time in office, often blocking executive actions. Hawley tried to argue that the rise of these injunctions was a recent and politically motivated development.
On his show, Hayes set the stage for the clip, saying: “There’s a fun moment in the United States Senate yesterday I’d love to share with you. Mostly because it features the amazing constitutional law professor/podcast host/New York Times contributor Kate Shaw, who’s also my wife. And it also features Missouri Senator Josh Hawley, who is amazing in his own way, I guess.”
Hayes went on to describe how Hawley had been “going to ridiculous lengths to defend the lawlessness of boss Trump.” He referred to a chart Hawley presented during the hearing, which showed the number of nationwide injunctions issued during different presidencies. Hawley seemed to suggest that the large number of injunctions during Trump’s presidency was part of a coordinated effort by “biased” judges.
As Hayes put it: “Hawley had printed out a big gotcha chart, which he seemed to think proved that Donald Trump is a victim of a vast network of biased judges from across the ideological spectrum.” Hayes noted that Shaw had a different, more direct explanation for the rise in injunctions.
The exchange between Shaw and Hawley unfolded as follows:
HAWLEY: “What’s the principle of when an injunction binding non-parties, which was never done in this country before the 1960s? And let’s see the chart, the Trump chart, which was done, really, only once Trump came into office for the first time. Now, you don’t think this is a little bit anomalous?”
SHAW: “A very plausible explanation, Senator, you have to consider is that he is engaged in much more lawless activity than other presidents, right?”
HAWLEY: “This was never used before the 1960s, and suddenly, Democrat judges decide, ‘We love the nationwide injunction,’ and then when Biden comes to office, ‘No, no, actually.’”
SHAW: “It’s Republican appointees as well, Senator. And the 1960s is where some scholars begin, sort of locate the beginning of this…”
HAWLEY: “Can you identify them?”
SHAW: “Mila Sohoni, who’s another scholar of universal injunction, suggests 1913 is actually the first, and others in the 20s.”
HAWLEY: “Oh, the republic endured for 150 years before there was a nationwide injunction.”
SHAW: “Well, the federal government was doing a lot less until 100 years ago. So, you know, there’s many things that have changed in the last 100 or the last 50 years.”
HAWLEY: “So, so long as it is a Democrat president in office, then we should have no nationwide injunctions? If it’s a Republican president, then this is absolutely fine, warranted, and called for.”
SHAW: “That is not…”
HAWLEY: “How can our system of law survive on those principles, Professor?”
SHAW: “I think a system in which there are no meaningful constraints on the president is a very dangerous system.”
In this back-and-forth, Shaw sharply pushed back on Hawley’s arguments, pointing out that the issue wasn’t about the political affiliation of the judges but the lawless actions of the Trump administration. Shaw also reminded Hawley that Republican-appointed judges have also issued nationwide injunctions, making his partisan argument weaker.
Hayes later highlighted his wife’s key point, quoting her response: “A very plausible explanation you have to consider is that he is engaged in much more lawless activities than other presidents.” Hayes, clearly proud of Shaw’s confident testimony, emphasized how her words cut through Hawley’s rhetoric.
You can watch the full clip of the exchange below via MSNBC.
